Defending marriage in an age of unreason

Published: 2 June 2013
By: Ann Schneible

The challenges faced by those who oppose same-sex “marriage” for religious reasons are growing

ROME: The challenges faced by those who oppose same-sex “marriage” for religious reasons are growing, with an increasing number of individuals and organisations voicing support for “gay rights,” while speaking out against what they claim to be discrimination and bigotry.

It has been less than a week since the Boy Scouts of America voted to allow openly gay scouts, although adults living active homosexual lifestyles are still prohibited from serving as leaders.

Same-sex “marriage” advocates laud the decision, which they say is a step toward ending discrimination in the faith-based organisation.

Earlier this month, Gary Meier, a priest for the diocese of St. Louis, Missouri, in the US, revealed himself to be the author of the anonymously published Hidden Voices: Reflections of a Gay, Catholic Priest (a second edition of the book was re-released last week under his real name).

Meier, who last year took a leave of absence from his ministry at Saints Teresa and Bridget Church in St Louis, openly criticises what he says is the Church’s “anti-gay” stance.

Proponents of “gay rights” frequently use a combination of personal experience and statistics to advocate their position.

This approach, however, is under scrutiny from academics such as Paul Gondreau, professor of Catholic theology at Providence College, Rhode Island, who says such arguments appeal to sentiment rather than to reason.

Although many who oppose same-sex “marriage” base their stance on their religious beliefs, Mr Gondreau, who recently gave a presentation on same-sex “marriage” for the Acton Institute in Rome, says establishing homosexual marriage in law defies not only faith, but reason.

“It is too often assumed that to oppose gay ‘marriage,’ or to be a defendant of traditional marriage, is to have a position that is necessarily faith-based,” Gondreau said.

“While that may be true for a lot of people, that doesn’t follow.”

Pope Benedict, for instance, “was tireless in reminding the world that the natural structure of marriage is founded upon human nature itself, accessible to reason, and common to all humanity. “

“Common sense,” Gondreau said, “tells us that, just as I need to pay attention to the nature of my lungs – I can’t sniff whatever I want, no matter the pleasure it might give – so too I need to respect the nature of my sexuality, and use it in such a way that it was obviously intended.”

“You can’t just treat nature as irrelevant.

“If you just look at the biological design of the human body, it’s pretty obvious what the sexual organs are made for.”

However, those who support same-sex “marriage” assume that the biological design is “irrelevant, that we can dismiss it as not having any normative value whatsoever.”

“We’re dealing with rival views of what it means to be human,” Gondreau said.

“We’re dealing with rival views of what it is to be happy, what it is to be moral.

“The view which supports gay marriage is predicated on the view that pleasure is the principle good which sex aims at; and that consent is the only criteria which needs to be met for sexual activity to be moral.”

The Catholic Church recognises this pleasure as being an objective good, but argues it is “not the primary good that sexual activity aims at… Rather, there are two higher goods, and sexual activity aims at them jointly: procreation and unitive love. Nature – the way we’re designed, what sexual union is ordered to – targets those together, and intends them to be together.”

Today’s cultural climate, however, makes it difficult to present any rational defense of traditional marriage because those who attempt to do so are silenced amid accusations of bigotry, the professor suggested.

“It is just assumed that there is no objection one can make to the gay lifestyle or to gay marriage. It’s assumed that it’s a discrimination issue,” Gondreau said.

Hearts are closed on the issue of same-sex marriage, he continued, and this prevents people from approaching the issue rationally.

He referred to St Thomas Aquinas, who wrote that man can become desensitised to the general moral sensibility inscribed in human nature – the same moral sensibility that reveals homosexual behavior as being incompatible with human design.

This desensitising can result from “our own bad action, through our own sinful behavior. But we can also get to that point through the culture in which we live.”

“First and foremost, we need to pray,” he said.

“What’s needed here, when hearts are closed, is conversion. But we still need to make the argument, and to challenge those who are unwilling to enter into a civil debate, or even a civil conversation.”

Zenit.org

Feminists meet opposition from top in Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox faiths

Catholic and Mormon feminists are not the only ones to face opposition from all-male leadership in their respective faiths. Russian Orthodox woman do, too.

Last week, Patriarch Kirill, head of the Russian Orthodox Church, called feminism “a very dangerous phenomenon,” which could lead to the downfall of the “family and, if you wish, the homeland,” according a Reuters report.

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“Man turns his sight outward, he should work, make money, while a woman is always focused inwards towards her children, her home,” Kirill told a group of Orthodox women. “If this exceptionally important role of a woman is destroyed, everything will be destroyed as a consequence.”

Meanwhile, Catholic Pope Francis has given the go-ahead to continue reforming the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella group of American nuns.

Last year, the Vatican committee on doctrine criticized the LCWR “for not speaking out strongly enough against gay marriage, abortion and women’s ordination,” Religion News Service reported, and for promoting “certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”

On Monday, Francis “reaffirmed the findings” of the Vatican investigation, RNS said, as well as allowing the “program of reform” for LCWR to go forward.

In Mormondom, writer, scholar and blogger Joanna Brooks is exploring the notion of priesthood: What is it? And do Mormon women already hold it?

“I’m convening a study hall. Let’s study on it,” Brooks writes at Feminist Mormon Housewives. “I’ll bring data. You bring data. We [can] reflect, think, discuss, and learn together.”

Earlier this month, a group of devout Latter-day Saints launched a drive to ordain women to the all-male Mormon priesthood. It was met by speeches from LDS leaders emphasizing that men and women have different but equally vital roles.

Peggy Fletcher Stack

Copyright 2013 The Salt Lake Tribune. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Modern church continually evolves – Quad-City Times

Patrick Buchanan’s column (“South American anchors Catholic conservatism,” March 16) demonstrates his lack of knowledge concerning the history of the Catholic church and the history of Christianity. He asks, “But if the church could have been so wrong for so long, while the world was right, and many had suffered for centuries because the church erred, what argument would be left for remaining Catholics?” This is Buchanan’s argument for the church not to change its teaching on the ordination of women and the gay marriage issue or birth control. This mentality is also the reason for the disastrous cover-up of the pedophile scandal. Indeed, refusing to correct its errors is the reason people leave the church.

Church teaching has changed over the centuries, thanks be to God. The church no longer burns heretics at the stake; no longer supports slavery; no longer insists the world is flat; and no longer condemns democracy. Thank heavens for those changes otherwise there would be no church today. What devastates the church is its stubborn unwillingness to be open to the discoveries of science and modern Biblical scholarship; to be willing to acknowledge its failures and correct its errors.

The church is after all a pilgrim church that must be open to the Holy Spirit. I’m betting the Holy Spirit prevails.

Arthur C. Donart

Thomson

Detroit Archdiocese issues strong statement on who should not take communion

DETROIT –

The Detroit Catholic Archdiocese issued some strong words Monday on who should and should not receive communion.

Holy Communion is the heart of the Catholic mass; it is a belief in the actual presence of Christ.

In a statement Archbishop Allen Vigneron compared Catholics who publicly support gay marriage and receive communion to a form of perjury.

The archbishop said, “In effect, they would contradict themselves. This sort of behavior would result in publicly renouncing one’s integrity and logically bring shame for a double-dealing that is not unlike perjury.”

Mark McMillan works for Affirmations, a group supporting the gay, lesbian bisexual and transgender community.

“It seems fascinating to me that all of a sudden the church would pick and choose this over this, and say we are going to withhold communion. What about this other stuff, I don’t understand why that’s not so important as well,” said McMillan.

Today the archdiocese broadened the restrictions in a statement saying that Catholics should not take communion if they publically oppose “any serious matter of the Church’s teaching. For example, whether it be a rejection of the divinity of Christ, racist beliefs, support for abortion, or support for redefining marriage.”

McMillan says he was once a Roman Catholic, but left the church after coming out as gay.

“Those that didn’t support me more often were, in my opinion, practicing catholic. And I tended to stop hanging out with them and I stopped going to a Catholic church. It didn’t support me. I don’t believe in a condemning god. I don’t believe in my life style being an abomination. I don’t believe that,” said McMillan.

There is no indication that priests are being directed to withhold communion.

Archbishop Vigneron says pastors are ready to “assist Catholics in performing their religious acts with integrity so that they can avoid this personal disaster.”

Blacks Don’t Have Same Views on Same-Sex Marriage

WASHINGTON (NNPA) – Rev. Amos Brown, pastor of the Third Baptist Church of San Francisco, and Rev. Anthony Evans, president of the National Black Church Initiative in Washington, D.C., are brothers of the cloth. Though they share a love for Jesus Christ and the Bible, they do not share the same views on same sex marriage, an issue now before the U.S. Supreme Court.

“I’m not going to ever believe that gay marriage is right,” said Evans. “It contradicts our tradition within the Black church. We take the Bible very literally when it comes to marriage.”

Brown, on the other hand, said, “You can’t use the Bible to support your position on this. Jesus didn’t say one word about gays. The Bible also says if your child disobeys you, you should kill them and that women who are menstruating should not be allowed in church. These are low-case words and actions of men, they have nothing to do with the high-case word of God and Jesus in terms of love and beauty.”

Like the preachers, African Americans are sharply divided on same-sex marriage.
Religious beliefs are often at the forefront of opposition to same-sex marriage. Among Blacks, in particular, it’s the common denominator among those who are against the issue.

Kevin Reid, 55, of Chicago, is a regular churchgoer. He opposes gay marriage.
“I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman,” he said.

Many Black opponents point to the most-quoted Bible verse on the issue, Leviticus 18:22, which reads, “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.”

Brittany Galloway, 25, of Washington, D.C., who attends a non-denominational church, said the issue of same-sex marriage pits her religious beliefs against societal trends.

“My interpretation of the Bible says being homosexual is wrong, but it’s constantly shown as a societal norm,” she said. “The Bible also says fornication is wrong. The fact that I live with my boyfriend right now is wrong.”

Galloway attributed her stance on same-sex marriage to her early-school life; she attended Christian school in Maryland from first to 12th grade.

“I don’t want to side with same-sex marriage just because the world is for it,” she said. “…My Bible says it’s wrong. I don’t think I should have to compromise on that.”

Supporters of same-sex marriage argue that most mentions of homosexuality in the Bible are in the Old Testament, along with prohibitions against standing in front of elders, cutting your hair and mixing fabrics.

The U.S. Supreme Court is expected to rule on the issue in late June or early July. The court will rule in two cases, the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) and California’s Proposition 8, a state constitutional amendment limiting marriage to one man and one woman.

DOMA, passed in 1996 under President Bill Clinton, bars Internal Revenue Service recognition of same-sex couples and restricts from the couples federal benefits, including Social Security survivors’benefits. The constitutionality of DOMA was argued in front of the Supreme Court on March 27.

If the Supreme Court declares the ban on same-sex marriage in California unconstitutional, the decision could have an effect on other states, something Evans said he’s not worried about.

“The Supreme Court can say they have a right to marry, but that doesn’t mean we have to respect that,” he said. “It doesn’t mean we have to marry them, either.”
Rev. Brown of San Francisco does not perform marriages for same-sex couples, but that hasn’t dampened his support for them.

“This nation is not a theocracy, it’s a democracy,” he said. “I think that Black people must also remember that we got our rights based on that 14th Amendment, I think that it’s wrong for any Black preacher to do to others what has been done to them. We ought to just let people be different and be who they are. If we get to that point, the better this nation will be, the better the family will be, and the better this church will be.”

African Americans are becoming more open to same sex marriage, with about 40 percent now for same-sex marriage while about 48 percent remaining opposed to the idea, according to a Pew poll.

That’s a dramatic shift from just 10 years ago when only 26 percent of Blacks supported same-sex marriage.

What has changed?

Gavin Delisser, 22, says being exposed to more gay people while living in Atlanta led to his taking a more open-minded stance.

“I grew up in a household with my pops, who is from Jamaica, and Jamaicans are raised to think of being gay as an abomination,”

Delisser says. “But living in Atlanta you can’t avoid [gay people] and you’d be ignorant to them.”

“I mind my business,” Delisser adds. “If they want to get married, that’s on them.”
Galloway says although she doesn’t believe same-sex marriage is right, she doesn’t want to discriminate against gays, because of her religious beliefs.

“I still love [gay people], I love everyone,” Galloway says. “I don’t think it should be seen as a reason to discriminate, I just think that the Bible is pretty clear on what it says as it relates to what’s right and what’s wrong.”

Renae Brooks, 62, , a retired first-grade teacher in Naperville, Ill, says the reaction of church leaders has led her to look favorably upon the idea of same-sex marriage.

Says Brooks: “I feel like they’re being discriminated against. I don’t even know that I would be so in favor if I didn’t think they were being discriminated against.”
Brooks, recalls being in Catholic Mass one Sunday and listening to a priest rant about how gay couples can’t properly care for children.

She says his statements upset her and contributed to her feelings of acceptance toward the gay community.

“Religious people will tell you that [being gay] is not the way it’s supposed to be—but it’s also meant to not be so hateful,” Brooks says.

“That’s equally as wrong.”

Evans says the clergy can’t avoid taking unpopular stands.

“Part of being a clergy is interpreting the Christian tradition through revelation, culture does not force Biblical interpretation, Biblical tradition forces culture,” Evans says. “There is a solid ethical tradition about marriage and human morality.”

Rev. Bernard Richardson, dean of Howard University’s Rankin Chapel, argues that the issue of same-sex marriage shouldn’t be seen as a religious one.

“We have couched it as a religious as opposed to a civil rights issue,” Richardson says. “I believe that the issue of same-sex marriage and gay rights is a spiritual issue in terms of our care and concern for God’s people.”

Habemus papam

Catholics welcome first pontiff from the Americans

Gretchen Burns | managing editor

Wednesday saw several firsts in the history of the Catholic Church. As the College of Cardinals elected the 266th Pope, an Argentinian Cardinal by the name of Jorge Mario Bergoglio.
Pope Francis, 76, is the first Catholic supreme leader from the Jesuit Order, the first non-European in modern times and the first Pope from the American continents. The new Pope has chosen to take the papal name of Francis, after Francis of Assisi, a saint who renounced his family to serve the poor. He is the first Pope to take on the name of Francis.
The name of Francis symbolizes “poverty, humility, simplicity and rebuilding the Catholic Church,” said Vatican scholar John Allen, in an interview with USA Today. “The new Pope is sending a signal that this will not be business as usual.”
Francis is a conventional choice for the Church. He is a theological conservative, with Italian ancestry, who strongly backs the Vatican positions on abortion, gay marriage, the ordination of women and other major issues. His stance on these issues has led to heated clashes with Argentina’s current left-leaning president, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner.
Pope Francis, formerly known as Cardinal Bergoglio, has been highly praised as a passionate defender of the poor and disenfranchised. He visited and surprised the staff of Muñiz Hospital in Buenos Aires and asked for a jar of water in 2001. He then proceeded to wash the feet of 12 hospitalized patients that had complications from the virus that causes AIDS. He kissed their feet and told reporters watching that “society forgets the sick and the poor.”
Bergoglio was born in Buenos Aires and obtained a masters degree in chemistry before entering the seminary at the age of 21. He is an avid soccer fan: His favorite team is the San Lorenzo club. He is known for the outreach he extends to the country’s poor. He gave up a palace for a small apartment and rode public transportation instead of a chauffeur-driven car and cooked his own meals.
As a student he enjoyed the study not of just theology, but also secular subjects like psychology and literature. He was ordained a priest at the age of 32 and ascended rapidly within Church ranks. By 1973 he was named the Jesuit provincial leader for Argentina. He served as the Archbishop of Buenos Aires since 1998.
Francis is being seen as an outsider that may be able to usher in the internal reform and cleanup that the Church is widely said to need after years of factionalism and scandal.
According to various reports, as a cardinal, Pope Francis was a strong opponent to Pope Benedict XVI at the last conclave, with the second highest vote total.

Modern church continually evolves

Patrick Buchanan’s column (“South American anchors Catholic conservatism,” March 16) demonstrates his lack of knowledge concerning the history of the Catholic church and the history of Christianity. He asks, “But if the church could have been so wrong for so long, while the world was right, and many had suffered for centuries because the church erred, what argument would be left for remaining Catholics?” This is Buchanan’s argument for the church not to change its teaching on the ordination of women and the gay marriage issue or birth control. This mentality is also the reason for the disastrous cover-up of the pedophile scandal. Indeed, refusing to correct its errors is the reason people leave the church.

Church teaching has changed over the centuries, thanks be to God. The church no longer burns heretics at the stake; no longer supports slavery; no longer insists the world is flat; and no longer condemns democracy. Thank heavens for those changes otherwise there would be no church today. What devastates the church is its stubborn unwillingness to be open to the discoveries of science and modern Biblical scholarship; to be willing to acknowledge its failures and correct its errors.

The church is after all a pilgrim church that must be open to the Holy Spirit. I’m betting the Holy Spirit prevails.

Arthur C. Donart

Thomson

The new Pope and the old

<!–enpproperty http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2013-03/15/content_28252246.htmwww.china.org.cnThe Catholic world’s newest pontiff, Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Argentina, faces a wide array of challenges in guiding the church through the 21st century.2013-03-15 13:44:18.0By Zhao JinglunThe new Pope and the oldPope,china,vatican,By Zhao JinglunBy Zhao Jinglun10077175184Zhao Jinglun/enpproperty–>

[By Zhai Haijun/China.org.cn]

Something unusual happened at the Vatican. Pope Benedict XVI resigned on February 28, 2013, claiming poor health due to old age. Pope Benedict was the first pontiff to resign in 598 years since Pope Gregory XII did the same in 1415. His act has been called truly extraordinary, and was unprecedented in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. There were a couple of other resignations in the past, but the circumstances were entirely different. Never has a Pope resigned because he felt too tired and weak to carry on.

On March 13, a gathering of Catholic cardinals picked a new pontiff, Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Argentina, the 266th of the Roman Catholic Church and the first non-European Pope in more than 1,200 years, and the first member of the Jesuit order to lead the church. The New York Times says, by their choice, the cardinals sent a powerful message that the future of the church lies in the global south.

The new Pope, who is 76, chose to be called Francis. He is known as a humble man who spoke out for the poor and led an austere life in a Buenos Aires apartment, having sold the archdiocese’s mansion. He also takes public transportation to work.

But Francis is also a doctrinal conservative. He has opposed liberation theology, abortion, gay marriage and the ordination of women. And the behavior of the Argentine church was at best ambiguous during the seventies when the military junta “disappeared” 30,000 people who were either tortured or killed.

That Francis should hold traditional views is altogether understandable. No one can be more anti-modern than his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI. Before he became pontiff, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger of Germany was called by his mentor Pope John Paul II to Rome in 1981 to lead the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and to act as chief guardian of Catholic orthodoxy.

He unswervingly enforced Catholic doctrines and defended conservative values, laying down strict interpretations of religious teachings, excommunicating leftwing theologians and speaking out against divorce, gay marriage and other liberal ideas.

His fight against Liberation Theology was particularly notable. Liberation theology as advocated by the Peruvian priest Gustavo Guttierrez, Leonardo Boff of Brazil and Oscar Romero of El Salvador, is a political movement in Catholic theology which interprets the teachings of Jesus Christ in relation to a liberation from unjust economic, political or social conditions.

It is a natural outgrowth of a progressive idea deeply rooted in the reality of Latin America. But it was not tolerated by the Pope’s “Grand Inquisitor” as well as the powers that be.

Authorities in the Roman Catholic Church did not appreciate Leonardo Boff’s criticism of church leadership. They also felt his human rights advocacy had “politicized everything” and accused him of Marxism. In 1985, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith directed by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger silenced him for a year for his book Church: Charism and Power. Boff retaliated by accusing Ratzinger of “religious terrorism” (terrorismo religioso).

Boff was almost silenced again by Rome in 1992, this time to prevent him from participating in the Eco-92 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro, which finally led him to leave the Franciscan religious order and the priestly ministry. He currently serves as Professor Emeritus of Ethics, Philosophy of Religion and Ecology at Rio de Janeiro State University.

Liberation theology was also not tolerated by the powers that be. Oscar Romero was assassinated by the El Salvador military.

Now that Pope Benedict XVI has resigned and predicted that the Church will become smaller and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning.

Indeed the Roman Catholic Church faces an array of challenges, including a shortage of priests, growing competition from evangelical churches in the southern hemisphere, a sexual abuse crisis that has undermined the church’s moral authority, and difficulties governing the Vatican itself.

Let us see how the new pontiff and the liberal wing of the Roman Catholic Church handle these challenges.

The author is a columnist with China.org.cn. For more information please visit: http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/zhaojinglun.htm

Opinion articles reflect the views of their authors, not necessarily those of China.org.cn.

Celebrity Popes, You’re Doing It Wrong

Kristen Chenoweth has been known for her supposed ‘Christianity’ in Hollywood. But now she has decided that being ‘Christian’ is no longer enough. Kristen Chenoweth has decided she is Pope.

The actress, who recently starred in a show called Good Christian B**ches (which lasted a shorter time than Manimal due to its Piers Morgan-like ratings), has bestowed upon herself the power to decide what is ‘Christian’ and what is not. Of course, she uses her new found power to promote ‘gay marriage’ and bash, you know, actual Christians.

In an interview with the Gay Star News [source]

As a big ally of the LGBT community, how do you feel about the marriage equality fights in the US and across the world?

Well I just want it to hurry up and not be an issue anymore! I’m very proud of the work that has been done so far, I want us to hurry it up a bit more.

I think it’s important to say this because a lot of people think if you’re religious or you have any sort of faith, you’re automatically against equality in marriage.
…
How do you feel about Christians who use the Bible to spread hate?

I think it is very anti-Christian of them. It is the antithesis of what I believe. It is the antithesis of what you should believe if you believe in Jesus. It’s not what he taught, it’s the opposite of what he taught.

If Jesus was to walk the Earth today, or Buddha or anybody, they would be horrified. Those people saying they’re doing it in the name of God? No no no no no.

I have had a lot of flack from my community, from the Southern Baptists. It’s important to say it, as a Christian person. It’s important for me to do it.

I find it amazing all the people who think, “if Jesus were around today, He would be just like ME!” I know, it seems totally out of place for celebrities to be so self-centered.  As for Kristen I will give her the benefit of the doubt, I think her push-up bra may be on too tight and cutting off circulation to her brain.

Let me offer a little advice for Kristen and all the other would-be celebrity Popes out there (and you non-celebrities), if you think that Jesus should be more like you, you are doing it wrong. 

Progressives, Conservatives Wrestle over Catholic Doctrine

Whoever succeeds Benedict faces challenges that will impact New England’s large Catholic community.

I’ve just entered the cavernous vestibule of the Holy Cross Cathedral. At this hour, there are two different masses being held, in two different languages, two visions for the future. In the upper church, a Mass hymnal in English; in the basement chapel, another in Latin.

A staircase separates the two, but it could just as well be separated by centuries of religious traditions. Following his election in 2005, Pope Benedict XVI affirmed his belief in conservative Catholic doctrine and promoted the symbols of traditionalism, including vestments and the Latin mass.

“As if Jesus himself spoke Latin or as if he conducted the mass wearing vestments,” said James Carroll, a former seminarian, and distinguished scholar in residence at Suffolk University. He said like conservative Catholic doctrine, the Latin mass is a throwback to the pre-Vatican II era. And for many folks that is appealing.

“The truth is there was something beautiful about it,” Carroll said. “It was coherent. It was orderly. There was an answer to every question and symbolized by the Gothic cathedral, the epitome of all that we loved about the Catholic Church. The astonishing thing is that this beautiful, coherent, gothic, edifice that was Catholicism — there was something deeply, deeply inhuman and corrupt in it.”     

The Second Vatican Council, or Vatican II, in the early 60’s, was a response to centuries old stagnation within the church, Carroll said. And so, Catholicism — constructed as a gothic fortress against external and internal forces — opened up, if only slightly, to new, modern-day realities. 

But in 2013 the doors are shut again, said Eileen Doherty, a member of the Spirit of life Community — a Catholic lay organization whose members believe in the ordination of women as priests, gay marriage, contraception in general, and even abortion under some circumstances.

“The way the Roman Catholic Church is going now is that they are excluding more people than helping,” Doherty said.

Under an iron-gray sky streaked with rain, Doherty and others are passing out flyers in front of the Cathedral. She accuses Cardinal Sean O’Malley and the church hierarchy of abandoning the poor.

“We have to be there for the people who can’t speak for themselves to make some necessary changes that have to happen for the church,” Doherty said. 

I asked her if those changes include doctrine.

“Yes, because the gospel of Jesus is not being adhered to, because Jesus was there for those that were deprived,” Doherty answered. “And they’re not my church. I don’t find them true to the gospel.”

Doherty said that Catholic doctrine — the way that gospel is taught and interpreted — must change to accommodate progressive viewpoints. But traditionalists in the church are pushing back.

As passengers dart from the subway in Downtown Crossing, they pass through a gauntlet of conservative activists passing out religious flyers. Ross Dutcher, a Catholic from Wakefield, hands me a pamphlet. What does he think of progressives claim to the church?

“They’re not really Catholic,” Dutcher said. “I mean, the church’s doctrine doesn’t change.”

How should the Catholic Church in your view and in the context of doctrine accommodate those folks who believe that women should be ordained? 

“Just tell them the truth,” Dutcher said. “Jesus ordained only men.”  

But Ray Flynn, former Boston mayor and U.S. ambassador to the Vatican, and a traditionalist, said that the church is fundamentally open to new ideas.

“I’ve seen the Catholic Church in Ghana, in Mexico City, in Sarajevo, in the middle East,” Flynn said. “How do you bring those traditions of culture into what we as Americans know the Catholic Church to be, consistent with our culture? That’s the challenge. Not by changing doctrine but by changing attitudes and making it more open and more inclusive.” 

Larry Kessler, who heads the Boston Center for Living, a facility assisting people to live with HIV, describes this as tinkering around the edges of change, not change itself. Kessler has spent most of his life working with AIDS victims in clinics and in hospices. He also attended Catholic schools and even went into the seminary.

“I guess I would say I have been a very practicing activist within the church for forty years, but recently I have had some serious doubts about whether I should hang on in there any longer,” Kessler said.

Kessler said he was hopeful following Vatican II, which gave lay people a greater role in church life. But he added the current Catholic hierarchy is mired in scandals and not receptive to change from below. 

“The pews are getting more empty every Sunday, because it’s not listening or speaking to the people that used to come to those pews,” Kessler said. “And it’s larger than the sexual abuse crisis. It’s a lack of leadership, a lack of vision, a lack of a coherent policy.”

Kessler said that instead of advocating for the kind of people he assists, he believes Catholic bishops — including Boston Cardinal Sean O’Malley — have directed their political energies into fighting contraception, abortion and gay marriage.

“The Catholic Church has acted more like the Republican Party, and we know what kind of trouble the Republican Party’s in because they’ve lost touch with the people who need strong government, and in terms of the church, we’ve lost trust in the bishops because they’re not being very Christ-like.”

But Flynn, a longtime advocate for the poor, strongly disagrees. 

“There are advocates for change, but the change is completely inconsistent with Catholic doctrine,” Flynn said. “The Catholic Church is not going to change its doctrine. Anybody that suggests that is trying to make headlines.” 

Francis Fiorenza, a professor of Catholic theology at Harvard Divinity School, said traditionalism and progressivism are not necessarily incompatible.              

“All one has to say is this is where the church is today,” Fiorenza said. “And the only way to do it is to develop a mutual respect to say, ‘Well, what is the side that doesn’t want change afraid of, and what do they really want to hold on to?’ And those that want change, they’re not wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. And we need to try to understand the positions of both. And you also would have to ask the question: What in modern culture is positive that demands change?” 

As you think about that question, another word or two about Francis Fiorenza. He studied theology in Germany. His teacher was Joseph Ratzinger — who took the name Pope Benedict XVI, a resolute conservative. So Fiorenza’s answer to what in modern culture is positive and demands change may surprise you.   

“If I take a controversial issue like women’s ordination, there I think change is possible,” Fiorenza said.

John Allen, national senior correspondent for the Catholic Reporter in Rome covering the election to succeed Benedict, said “not likely.”

“Bear in mind, everyone of the 117 cardinals who will vote in this election were appointed by either John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI, and on the big picture level, they’re all of like mind,” Allen said. “So I think its quite unrealistic to think whoever is elected pope is going to revise the church’s teachings on issues like abortion, or gay marriage or the ordination of women.”

But Carroll — who’s witnessed the Church evolve from a legacy of anti-Semitism to an embrace of civil rights — said never say never in the context of Catholic doctrine.

“Because we’ve had the breakthrough already: the breakthrough into the world of change,” Carroll said. “And what’s the most palpable recent incidence of that? Pope Benedict himself. By changing a practice of the church that’s a thousand years old that pope’s don’t resign. Well, yes, they do. And the church of Benedict will never be the same.” 

But some Catholics are not waiting for the outcome of the conclave.

“This church is an aberration of Catholic doctrine,” said Doherty, passing out progressive literature in front of the Cathedral of the Holy Cross.

“Women ordained? Same-sex marriage? Contraception? The Church isn’t going to go that way,” said the conservative Dutcher, handing out flyers on the Red Line platform.

Both are waging a spiritual battle, if you will, for the heart and soul of the Roman Catholic Church, which they both claim as their own.